What We Both Gain from a Closer Relationship

Guest: John Han, Science and Technology Directorate International Cooperative Programs Office

Host: Brittany Greco, Senior Communications Specialist, Science and Technology Directorate

[00:00:00] John: The first time I traveled to Singapore, I was introduced to a dish called Chili Crab.

[00:00:04] Brittany: Ooh, okay.

[00:00:04] John: It’s, for me, it was life changing.

[00:00:07] Dave DeLizza: This is technologically speaking, the official podcast for the Department of Homeland Security, Science Technology Directorate or S&T, as we call it. Join us as we meet the science and technology experts on the front lines, keeping America safe.

[00:00:21] Brittany: Hello everyone and welcome to Technologically Speaking. I’m one of your hosts, Brittany Greco, and joining me today is John Han, S&T’s attaché to Singapore. John, thank you so much for being here today.

[00:00:31] John: Good morning, Brittany, thank you for having me. I’m really looking forward to this.

[00:00:33] Brittany: So, what is your role in the embassy? What does S&T’s attaché to Singapore do?

[00:00:38] John: So, my primary role there is to serve as the go-to for anything that touches the science and tech innovation space, specifically as it applies to the public safety and security mission. A lot of that will cross, overlap, with the colleagues from the DoD side who also work in the S&T space. We recognize that we have different lanes, but there is some, overlap, right? Because there’s dual use capabilities, technologies and things that are relevant either for the war fighter or for the law enforcement officer, right? So we recognize that you have to be in the conversation in order to really determine, “Hey, is this something that’s worth really further exploring,” or is it, “Yeah, this is really not in my lane.”

[00:01:23] Brittany: You need to have that perspective of how would this apply to the DHS mission, not just rely on somebody to be like, “Oh, maybe that would be relevant to you.” You want to make sure that DHS’s interest, DHS’s mission is represented there. Can you tell us a little bit about your background, how you came to S&T?

[00:01:38] John: Absolutely. I joined S&T back in 2007. That was in the early stages of the department and they were looking for people who were already working in the international space who had an understanding, and working knowledge of all the things that were required to stand up an office. I saw the opportunity and, I’ve been with S&T since then.

[00:01:59] Brittany: Have you always had an interest in working with other countries, of working with that international scope?

[00:02:04] John: I did, and that was the common denominator for me. I knew that I wanted to continue in the international, or foreign affairs arena, and so when I saw the opportunity—Homeland Security was still a relatively new thing back then—when I saw that there was that international nexus, that’s what really compelled me to seize the opportunity.

[00:02:23] Brittany: We think of these government institutions like they’ve always been there, they’ve been around forever, but DHS is only 22 years old.  What’s it been like being able to build this office, the International Cooperative Programs Office?

[00:02:35] John: I sometimes have to pinch myself. I’m one of the few people, I think myself and our director, Stephanie Okimoto. We came in right about the same time, so we’ve seen it all. We’ve been through the highs, and lows, and everything in between. I think that has instilled in me a greater appreciation for all the things that S&T, and the department at large, that we’ve endured, that we’ve seen. It serves as a reminder each day, and especially now that I’m not posted here in Washington, but in Singapore, that we can continue to carry that work, to push out our borders and just to work with partners. It just serves as a daily reminder to me what an honor and privilege it is to be able to continue that mission.

[00:03:15] Brittany: I understand you have a background in public service. You served in the United States Marine Corps?

[00:03:20] John: Yeah, I did. So right after college, in the mid-nineties. I’ve always had this thing about wanting to experience the military. After college I saw an opportunity and went in. I served primarily in the reserve component. I was living in New York City at the time, and I was with the reserve unit up there. I did my four years of duty, and then I was transferred over to the ready reserve, but 9/11 happened. I got out about 10 months before 9/11 happened. I had just got married, found out that my first child was on the way.

[00:03:51] Brittany: Oh, wow.

[00:03:51] John: And then my unit, I heard, got activated, and they were sent to Afghanistan. Part of me was like, it was just, I was kind of torn. I felt this sense of, “I want to go, serve, but I’m down here in Washington now. I just got married, first kid on the way, what do I do?” I got a notice from the Marine Corps, the reserve command, asking me to update my status. So, I updated it, I sent it back, and I was just waiting for the notice to come. It didn’t come. So, I think at the time, there was such a patriotic swell of people. So they had no shortage of people that were willing to sign up and defend the country. I did not have to see actual combat. And then, you know, I entered government service and continue to serve, you know, until today.

[00:04:35] Brittany: And we appreciate your service. I think that it’s really heartening to hear how that current of public service runs through, both your career in the Marines, and your career at S&T. So, as attaché to Singapore, this is a relatively new position. Can you tell us, what brought it about and what’s it like?

[00:04:51] John: Yeah, absolutely. This position in Singapore got final approval about a year and a half, two years ago, and I posted this past summer back in July of ’24.

[00:05:00] Brittany: Oh wow, very recently.

[00:05:02] John: Very recently, but I had the benefit of having worked with Singapore for over 15 years, and I’ve traveled there extensively, so I was very familiar the culture, the environment, the partners, the people, the places. I didn’t really have a steep learning curve, which was, I think, to my advantage, because I could hit the ground running. I didn’t have a period of the first four to six months just getting a lay of the land, and I think that really helped me because, within a month of my arrival, I was able to help facilitate a workshop with our component partners. Something that’s not easy to do, but I think because you already have the experience, and the background, and the people, that is what made it possible. The position comes under the Chief of Mission Authority. We had very strong support and backing, not only from the mission, but from the host government, which was really important. They saw the value, and we saw Singapore as a leader in the science and technology innovation space, and so for us it was easy. If there was one place that we were going to open a presence in the Indo-Pacific, it would be in Singapore.

[00:06:07] Brittany: You mentioned that Singapore is a key, a leader, in some areas of interest for DHS, for the U.S. government at large. I wonder if you can expand on some of that. When we look at Singapore, as an important partner, what are some of the DHS mission areas, or priorities, that we’re working on with them, that they have a lot of insight, and that benefits us?

[00:06:27] John: Yeah, absolutely, so Singapore, for those that are not familiar, it’s tiny, it’s what we call a tiny red dot, right? It’s small, urban, in a tropical environment with no natural resources. So, one could ask, then what do they bring to the table? What do they offer? They are highly skilled. Their talent is just unbelievable. They have emerged as a leader, not only in Southeast Asia, but globally. They are now the financial hub, so a lot of the FinTech, a lot of the things that you saw happening in places like Hong Kong have now been drawn, pulled away, and a lot of these, multinational corporations have set up shop in Singapore. A lot of the wealth in the world is being managed in Singapore. And so, what that does is, it attracts a lot of investments and, in order for Singapore to sustain that image on the world stage, they have to ensure that people feel safe, so Singapore has gone to great lengths to, sustain that image of being the safest city, the safest place right now. They’ve made tremendous investments in tech and innovation.

Recently, they’ve put a lot of effort into engaging with the startup community. They engage startups from the U.S., from Europe, from Australia, from all over, and they work on these problems or challenge statements. Things that are very similar to some of the challenges that we face across the homeland security enterprise. They’re doing some really incredible stuff, and right now they’ve really doubled down on ensuring that AI is at the forefront of everything. They’ve made considerable investments to ensure that AI is a key component to everything, and I’m talking specifically about our partners. Our partners are the Home Team Science and Technology Agency. They are the ones who are our direct counterparts. They’re the ones who work with the Home Team, and when I say the Home Team, I’m talking about under the Ministry of Home Affairs. They have 10 Home Team departments. That would be comprised of the police, civil defense force, immigration checkpoints authority, the prisons bureau, et cetera. It’s a combination of the DHS and DOJ mission. What they did was, back in 2019, they decided to centralize all of the S&T functions. They stood up this new agency called HTX, and very similar to the world that we live in at S&T, working closely with our component partners, and state and locals, to understand what are their needs? How can we assist them? So that’s exactly what they’re doing. This spans across all various domains. We’re talking in the maritime, in the cyber domains, in land, in the aviation, critical infrastructure. One thing I want to highlight also is, when you look at how HTX has stood up, they’ve shared with me that they derived a lot of their inspiration from us.

[00:09:20] Brittany: Oh, wow.

[00:09:21] John: Yeah. Our tech centers align very closely to their, what they call their COEs. Now for us, Centers of Excellence, their COEs stand for Centers of Expertise. So that’s where the technical expertise sits in.

Brittany: Interesting.

John: So they have, I believe, at last count 15, all focused on a different core capability. There’s one focused on robotics, on automation and unmanned systems. You have one focused on just cyber, focused on forensics, focused on biometrics, and so forth. They’re doing some fantastic research. And really not just for the sake of research, but how does that benefit the end user?

[00:10:01] Brittany: Finding those practical applications for operational partners, right?

John: Mm-hmm. And so, those home team departments work very closely with HTX, to ensure that they’re working on things that have direct applicability to the day-to-day mission of the home team. So when I look at that, I see a lot of similarities with what we’re doing at DHS, this unity of effort, what we’re trying to do, of course it’s a different scale, we’re much bigger, yes, but I think you’ll find that there are a lot of similarities, and I think that’s what makes them a really good partner, because we share a lot in common.

[00:10:33] Brittany: Speaking of that partnership, you’ve highlighted some of the areas that Singapore’s expertise is making really important strides—in drone capabilities, law enforcement capabilities—so then, okay, we have the two nations, we have Singapore, we have the United States, how, through your position as an at attaché, how do we both benefit from that relationship? They’re doing great work over there, we’re doing great work over here. How does that tide lift both boats?

[00:11:00] John: Yeah, absolutely, and that’s where I come in, right? Being able to know who to contact, who to reach out to, and helping to facilitate those connections. It’s not just on behalf of DHS or S&T, and our component partners, but it’s also with our interagency partners as well. There are a number of different agencies and representatives that comprise the country team and we meet once a week. We sit down with the ambassador just to review things, you know, what are we working on, things like that. We share notes. And I can tell you just in those conversations, you learn about, oh, they’re going to sponsor a workshop, I have something scheduled that may be of interest to you. There’s a lot of cross pollination, and this is how we ensure that we’re tapping into as much as we can. Just a great opportunity for us to have a seat at the table because, you can’t really do that from 10,000 miles away. As the attaché, I am the facilitator. I’m the one who has to know enough about what the priorities are, or what has changed on this side, to communicate that, to transmit that, and see where we can align with what partners are doing there. And in that process, you’re having those back-and-forth conversations, both at a working, staff, level, but also managing up to more of a senior management level. And through that process, trying to really get to what are the things that we can work on together. That we can weed out the things that maybe we don’t align in, but what are the areas where we can?

[00:12:30] Brittany: Can, you give us an example of some of those areas? Like, where have we made progress with Singapore lately?

[00:12:34] John: Sure. The most recent visit was by Rachel Gooding from CSAC. She came out for a CBRN workshop that was sponsored by the State Department.

Brittany: And what is CBRN?

John: Chem, Bio, Rad, Nuc.

Brittany: Thank you.

John: We did a sub-regional response workshop in cooperation with State and with our colleagues at DTRA. I was really pleased that we were able to get S&T out there. Why that’s important is because Singapore was hosting it, and they brought in several of the regional countries there. Singapore, for those that don’t know, is one of the 10 member nations that comprise ASEAN so the Association of Southeast Asian Nations.

[00:13:07] Brittany: Thank you.

[00:13:08] John: I think it is Thailand, the Philippines, Malaysia, Vietnam, and Indonesia.

[00:13:14] Brittany: Oh, wow.

[00:13:15] John: Yeah, so they were present. It was focused on a chemical incident on a large scale with mass casualties that overwhelmed the government there. Singapore being so dense, and so small, what would that look like?

[00:13:27] Brittany: Yeah.

[00:13:28] John: And, how quickly would they need international assistance, and how soon could we get them that assistance? It was going through this exercise to see in the immediate aftermath, in the first 24 hours, 48 hours, in a week, how would this plume spread and just overwhelm. We hope that day never comes, of course, but if it did, we have some really smart people who are doing some really incredible work in dispersion modeling, plume modeling, and this is where the science really matters.

[00:14:00] Brittany: Can you speak a little bit, broadly, about what are DHS’s interests, the U.S.’s interests in the Indo-Pacific? Bringing those groups of nations together, why is it important that we look at the Indo-Pacific, and what can we both gain out of a closer relationship?

[00:14:15] John: So, we look at some of the concerns, and the threats emanating from the People’s Republic of China, and you can’t wait until something bad happens and then just respond to that, right? You’ve got to be positioned; you’ve got to be ready. For those of us looking at this from the homeland security, public safety, security, perspective, what can we do? What role can we play to help ensure that the citizenry are going to be prepared, and to encounter, and deal with, whatever may come?

If you look at a map of where Singapore is, it’s this little red dot at the end of the Malay Peninsula, right where the Strait of Malacca is, and it opens up to the South China Sea, which makes it very strategic.

[00:14:58] Brittany: Yeah.

[00:14:59] John: It’s where the bulk of the world’s maritime, the trade, it transverses through that area, so if anything happens there, it affects everybody. No one is immune if something bad happens. Singapore understands where they sit, and this is their livelihood, right? So, if anything happens to their port that can disrupt commerce, the supply chain, they’ll be decimated. So, they have to ensure that nothing happens. They also need to make sure that Singapore has access to food, energy, and maintaining open seas. In Singapore, you can look out, and I’m not kidding when I say this, you can count hundreds of ships out on the strait, you can see them from land. They’re just parked, and they’re just all kind of waiting.

[00:15:49] Brittany: That feels kind of spooky sometimes.

[00:15:50] John: You can just Google it, Singapore port and you can just see all of the vessels, of all different shapes and sizes, just parked out there. What if just one of those ships, that was a kilometer or two off the coast from the central business district, had something on board and just detonated? Can you imagine? That’s the worst-case scenario, and they can’t afford that. So they have to ensure that everything from their intelligence, to capability development, to sensors, all of those things are in play.

[00:16:23] Brittany: And those are the areas where we can work together, because that is mutually beneficial research and development. When we look at the U.S., we want to have secure borders. We want to have, safe, legal, expedient trade and travel. You want to make sure that nothing bad is getting in, to the best of our ability So there’s a lot of parallels there. How have our research and development efforts with Singapore, or with the Indo-Pacific, broadly, how have they evolved over the past few years, and where do you see them going in the future?

[00:16:49] John: So with Singapore, we’ve established a partnership with the Republic of Korea. We’re just starting to establish one with the government of Japan. These are countries that serve as a counterbalance to Beijing. It’s a show of force to say, the closer that we, the U.S., is aligned with any one of those partners, or any one of those countries, in that part of the world sends a message.

[00:17:10] Brittany: All right, so we have a clip from one of our partners in Singapore. I’m going to cue it up, and I would love to just get your thoughts on it—Derek Chong, from Singapore’s Home Team Science and Technology Agency, who you’ve mentioned earlier. We’re going to play the clip and then we’d love to get your reaction to it.

[00:17:24] Derek Chuong: International collaboration in science and technology is ideal for the way it encourages the exchange of ideas and knowledge, and that it will help S&T communities grow, and improve, and adopt international best practices. This also facilitates a collective effort in conceptualization, and test-bedding new and innovative approaches to tackle complex issues that we face in the public security and safety sphere, especially so in today’s heightened global security posture.

[00:17:55] Brittany: Do you have any thoughts or any reactions to that?

[00:17:57] John: I share that sentiment as well. I think our partners from HTX, they recognize the importance of continuing the engagement, with international partners, both on the government side as well as with industry. Singapore, over the years that I’ve worked with them, I have personally been involved and have facilitated engagement with government at all levels. With our labs, various labs, DOE labs as well, have brought them out to places like Sandia, for example. And with universities, so really just, partners in academia, government, industry, because they leave no stone un unturned. I mentioned about how our tech centers aligned to their centers of expertise, COEs, so that is one of them, HTX, it’s one of the 15 that I mentioned before. They’re doing some really incredible stuff, and they’re working very closely with the Home Team Academy, HTA, the Home Team Academy in Singapore. I mentioned before the home team departments, 10 of them under the ministry, so they’re one of them. So, HTA Home Team Academy, is the equivalent of our FLETC.

[00:18:59] Brittany: Oh, okay. Sure.

[00:19:00] John: So FLETC, provides federal law enforcement training centers. They, and they have a direct relationship with HTA. So you have Home Team Academy, FLETC, HTX, and S&T working together, providing the capabilities and doing the research and the science behind it that helps to inform the training that HTA and FLETC provides to help their frontline officers, agents, so on, and so forth. So that’s where that connection is made.

[00:19:31] Brittany: Turning back to our tour of Singapore, what are some of your favorite things to eat when you’re in-country?

[00:19:37] John: Well, like I said, Singapore’s pastime is shopping and eating. I’m not a big shopper, but, I’m definitely a foodie. In Singapore, you’ll hear this term “hawker”, hawker centers, or hawker stalls, and these are very, small, so it’s usually in an outdoor environment, it’s a little bit uncomfortable because it’s hot, they might have some ceiling fans running, but it’s packed. And they have hawker centers throughout the island. Some of them are Michelin star.

[00:20:06] Brittany: No way.

[00:20:07] John: Yes, okay, and you can tell which ones they are because obviously you see this massive line. One of the traditional Singapore dishes is called, Chicken Rice. It doesn’t sound fancy. It’s literally what it sounds like, Chicken and flavored rice, right? Very good though. You’ll go to a hawker center and you’ll see one stall with this line that just wraps around. You’re just like, yeah, I don’t know if I want to wait like 45 minutes or an hour.

[00:20:33] Brittany: Gonna be good, but it is going to be a long wait.

[00:20:35] John: The one right next door? Same thing, Chicken rice, but it’s got like three people, right?

Brittany: Which one are you going to?

John: That’s the thing. Tourists and people who are like, I must go here because this is where, this is the place to be. Me, I’m just like, you know what? I can go somewhere else. I don’t need to wait. I don’t have that much time to begin with, but I will say, some past S&T colleagues who’ve come, they know this, the first time I traveled to Singapore, I was introduced to a dish called Chili Crab.

[00:21:04] Brittany: Ooh, okay.

[00:21:06] John: It’s, for me, it was life changing.

[00:21:08] Brittany: No way, what made it life changing?

[00:21:10] John: Yeah, I was like, what is this thing? Like, where have you been? How come I never knew about you before? That kind of thing. It was just, it was incredible. It’s the sauce, right? It’s just incredible. They get these crabs, these mud crabs, thick, mud crabs from Sri Lanka, and they prepare it a certain way, with the sauce, and it’s just, the aroma’s intoxicating. And then they give you these little buns.

[00:21:37] Brittany: I do like a bun.

[00:21:38] John: And you just soak up the sauce, and it gets messy, so you put on a bib. And anytime you gotta put on a bib, it’s like business, right? And gloves, if you want ’em, and, you know you’re gonna work. And I ate this thing and I fell in love with it. I was like, how come this doesn’t exist in, America?

[00:21:56] Brittany: You were like, let’s get some more chili crab in my life.

[00:21:59] John: So now the good news is you can actually buy the chili crab paste.

Brittany: Oh, helpful.

John: And so when I was traveling back and forth, I used to grab some, every trip, and I’d bring it back. Now you have to improvise, because you’re not going to find the same kind of crabs. But my wife is a great cook, and she’ll love me saying that, she improvised and substituted scallops, and prawns, other seafood. Yeah, just as good, because it’s the sauce that really makes it, but incredible. Yeah, there’s so much, it’s such a melting pot of different cultures and cuisine in Singapore. You have, like, little India, you have Arab Street, You have the Chinatown, you have the Malay influence, you have western influence. It’s just a mishmash of everything food.

[00:22:44] Brittany: Looking ahead over the next year or so, what would you like to see happen in this relationship? What would you like to accomplish or what would you like to see make some really good progress?

[00:22:53] John: I believe there are four key areas; border security, immigration enforcement, fentanyl, or countering transnational organized crime. Those are areas where this administration has made it very clear that we need to be focused on. How can I advance any one of those with our partners in Singapore?

[00:23:09] Brittany: John, thank you so much for joining us today. It’s been a pleasure talking to you, and I will be booking a trip to Singapore in the immediate future.

[00:23:15] John: It was a pleasure. If you come, just hit me up, let me know, and I’ll be happy to show you around and, give you some inside information.

[00:23:21] Brittany: Perfect. Thank you so much.

[00:23:23] Dave: Thank you for listening to Technologically Speaking. To learn more about what you’ve heard in this episode, check out the show notes on our website, and follow us on Apple Podcasts and YouTube, and on social media at DHS SciTech. D H S S C I T E C H. Bye!