You Can Get Any Result Once

Host: Brittany Greco, Senior Communications Specialist, Science and Technology Directorate, Department of Homeland Security

Guest: Renee Stevens, Senior Standards Advisor, Office of Science and Engineering, Science and Technology Directorate, Department of Homeland Security

[00:00:00] Renee: Imagine the seats that we’re sitting on right now. If the metal in the screws had not met certain standards. And so you might sit on it and it’ll be okay, and I sit on it and it collapses. Imagine those bolts in a plane, a train, an automobile. 

[00:00:15] Dave DeLizza: This is Technologically Speaking, the official podcast for the Department of Homeland Security Science Technology Directorate, or S&T, as we call it. Join us as we meet the science and technology experts on the front lines, keeping America safe. 

[00:00:29] Brittany: Hello everyone and welcome to Technologically Speaking, S&T’s official podcast. I’m one of your hosts, Brittany Greco, and I’m very excited today to be joined by Renee Stevens, our senior standards advisor.

[00:00:41] Renee, thank you so much for being here.

[00:00:42] Renee: Oh, thank you for having us. We’re excited to talk about standards today.

[00:00:46] Brittany: So, speaking of standards…what are standards? Can you explain them for us?

[00:00:50] Renee: Sure. So, standards are technical specifications that are used for the manufacturing and design and delivery of products, of detection capabilities, and even procedures so that they are consistent, reproducible, everything that is scientifically sound.

[00:01:11] What people don’t realize is standards go into or a critical part of everything that we use–

[00:01:16] Brittany: Mm-hmm.

[00:01:17] Renee: From the bolts that go into bridges and cars and planes, to something even a little bit more simple as the metal that we use in our keys and in our instruments.

[00:01:29] Brittany: So, you mentioned that standards can be for both, you know, products and services. Are there any differences between how you evaluate or how you establish standards for, let’s say a bolt or a helmet versus a, you know, a security procedure? What would those differences be?

[00:01:46] Renee: They’re the same in that they have to be methodical. 

[00:01:49] Brittany: Okay. 

[00:01:50] Renee: They have to be methodical. There has to be something more technical than a checklist. But there has to be a procedure in place to make sure that everything is met. There are the basic materials there is the process that’s required in creating and designing and actually producing it.

[00:02:06] So it, the process is the same. It’s just that it might be a bit more detailed for something that’s a lot more complex.

[00:02:13] Brittany: Are there any examples you can give us of a product, let’s say, that the standard has changed over the past few years or past decades, that you’ve been excited to see that change happen?

[00:02:24] Renee: All emerging technology. 

[00:02:25] Brittany: Yeah.

[00:02:26] Renee: We can go to something like our computer you know, say, let’s go back even just 20 years ago, what our computers look like versus what they look like now. Computers, every time we take a piece of technology, and we try to shrink down the physical size of it, we have to make sure that we don’t remove any functionality.

[00:02:45] Brittany: True. 

[00:02:46] Renee: So, in that means that the components of that technology has to change. So, for example, if you go way, way, back to, say, when the computers that took up entire room. 

[00:02:56] Brittany: Yeah.

[00:02:57] Renee: Right. That capability is probably, not even a portion of what’s in your cell phone now. But in order to do that, we have to go back to the components of that technology. Like what is it? What is a computer? What is it composed of? How does it hold data? How does it, how do you, preserve the integrity of it?

[00:03:14] How do you preserve the functionality of it? How do you ensure that? And so, you know, the chips that go into it have gone from micro to nano to something else. And in order to be able to have that functionality, so those standards have to change and have to evolve as the needs of people go forward.

[00:03:31] We also have things that have to be interoperable now because now computers talk to each other. They’re not just in a room, now they have to transmit data. So then there are standards that go into that data transmissibility, for integrity, for security, for authenticity and everything else.

[00:03:47] So, what we call a computer now is very different than what we call the computer 20 years ago.

[00:03:51] Brittany: Sure. I mean, even just looking at, you know, computers, looking at cell phones, like you said, you know, they used to be these big boxy things and now it’s like, oh, we can just carry this around in our pocket.

[00:03:59] Renee: In your pocket. 

[00:04:00] Brittany: So, who sets these standards?

[00:04:03] Renee: So, in the United States and internationally, there are standards development organizations. 

[00:04:08] Brittany: Okay. 

[00:04:09] Renee: Where industry, academia, government, other entities come together, and they’re called consensus standards.

[00:04:13] Brittany: Okay. 

[00:04:14] Renee: So, they sit in a room, virtually or real, and they agree on the specifications that are needed for basic functionality. And then there are augmented standards for things that have to have more security, that have to have more interoperability. And it depends on what the environment is that they’re going to be used.

[00:04:34] For example, what’s needed for first responders and military and government secure capabilities is gonna be a little bit different than just what the basic consumer needs. 

[00:04:43] Brittany: Sure. 

[00:04:44] Renee: But even in that, they have to be some basic requirements for the functionality of that technology or something similar to it.

[00:04:51] Brittany: It almost feels like you’re defining you know, a ballistic helmet. It needs to meet these criteria. Otherwise it’s just a helmet. 

[00:04:57] So then how does that guidance affect the manufacturing, affect the purchasing sides of that?

[00:05:03] Renee: So, in order to create any type of product someone’s gonna need to buy it. You know, very few people are still inventing or creating or manufacturing things just because it’s fun.

[00:05:12] There are costs to it. So, if you have the, per the end user in the room saying this is what we’re going to need. That’s incentive for the person developing and designing it to actually do that. And also, we have the government involved in this activity, you know, there’s information that’s being shared and collaborated on of what’s going to be needed for emergency response, for just regular functionality.

[00:05:36] For example, when you go to a concert, and you need speakers that, you know, the singers need and bands need to be heard. Emergency response needs to be heard. If someone child is lost, that needs to be heard. That all has to connect to several different pieces of equipment. And so that, that interoperability becomes critical because every band from all over the world is coming to this venue and it needs to be able to plug in with no issue.

[00:06:03] So, having technology that’s interoperable, that’s usable wherever you are on the globe, because we’re not isolated anymore. So, you know, we’re global…everything. I mean, everything that we do, our education systems, our entertainment systems, our emergency response systems are critical. You know, recently in the news we saw the earthquake in Myanmar, and we have emergency response, from all over the world showing up in one place. And that all of that equipment has to be an interoperable in some way. And so technical specifications that go into those technologies help to make that possible so that we can rescue people, recover people, help with the rebuilding and everything else that has to be done.

[00:06:41] Brittany: And that’s something that strikes me as really profound, especially for DHS’s mission, which was born out of, you know, the tragedy of 9/11 and how interoperability was a huge issue that day in coordinating the response and rescue efforts. So, when we get these people in the room and we have, you know, end users, we have manufacturers, we have government bodies, academics, et cetera, so how does that conversation then trickle down to S&T? What’s our role in that conversation?

[00:07:06] Renee: So, S&T starts off with getting what the needs are for all of our components.

[00:07:10] And everything that we do affects every single part of not just the United States, but the world. But if you even look at just the United States environment and temperature wise, I mean, we have Hawaii, we have Alaska. We can have, we will have snow and 90 degrees on any given day. So, things have to work interoperably and the temperature does affect technology. 

[00:07:31] Brittany: Sure. 

[00:07:32] Renee: It affects wires. You know, this, the salt, air and molecules affect technology tremendously and also what our first responders are wearing. What we need to put them in to protect them. 

[00:07:43] So, S&T makes sure that we are a little bit ahead of what the components need to operate. We have regular interaction with them to make sure that what we’ve delivered and what they procured is what they need.

[00:07:58] And to make sure that we make adjustments as necessary and we make sure that we can test that so that the components don’t have to take time or money out of their own operational budget to test equipment, I mean, it becomes an issue of life, death, and national security if the wrong thing is purchased and it doesn’t do what it says it’s going to do. So, S&T develops what’s needed because sometimes what’s available on the open market doesn’t quite do what the components need it to do. 

[00:08:26] Brittany: Sure. 

[00:08:26] Renee: We can, interact with engineers and academia and et cetera, do some testing to get the components precisely what they need, because it’s just very different.

[00:08:35] You mentioned the helmets earlier. 

[00:08:36] You know, a ballistic helmet is gonna do something different than a hard impact helmet, and we wanna make sure that it’s structurally sound so that when one of our officers or agents is wearing it, that he or she’s protected.

[00:08:47] And we wanna make sure that, you know, the components are spending their funds in a way that’s most beneficial to them and then do any testing to augment what they have.

[00:08:54] Brittany: That’s a really good point because, you know, the value that we can bring to them is saying, this is a very technical subject area. Let us handle this part for you and we’ll let you know, you know, what we find.

[00:09:03] It’s not that S&T is recommending any particular–

[00:09:07] Renee: Correct.

[00:09:07] Brittany: Solution or product, but we’re sort of establishing this is what it should do.

[00:09:13] Can you talk a little bit more about that important clarification, that distinction?

[00:09:15] Renee: Sure. So, what we’re talking about is the actual capability of a type of technology. Not the brand, not who sells it, but an actual capability.

[00:09:25] Even if it’s something as simple as a pelican case, to carry that equipment because the equip the equipment, if it doesn’t arrive safely just won’t work.

[00:09:32] Brittany: It’s useless. Yeah.

[00:09:33] Renee: Right. So, we’re not giving them the name, the brand name of the Pelican case, we’re letting them know this is how thick your cushioning needs to be. This is what you need to make it ruggedized. This is what happens to the capability, if it’s ruggedized, how big it will get, how heavy it will get. 

[00:09:49] The weight is very critical because– 

[00:09:50] Brittany: Absolutely. 

[00:09:51] Renee: They have to carry it quickly. They have to be aware of attacks.

[00:09:55] We have a lot of law enforcement under DHS, and they’re making a lot of critical life or death decisions, and so they’re gonna have to drop a piece of equipment in order to save their lives or protect people. So, without naming any equipment, I think looking at the size and the weight in particular, and the functionality, looking at what you lose in ruggedizing equipment and making sure that, you know, we can do a balance of that.

[00:10:19] If it’s lighter, but it will be less rugged.

[00:10:21] Brittany: That’s a trade off, 

[00:10:22] Renee: Absolutely. 

[00:10:23] Brittany: I’m remembering an example where we were evaluating a technology, I think that was for firefighter helmets. And it was like it involved a series of three buttons, but because firefighter gloves are so thick, it was really an eye-opening moment to see like, oh, this is actually very difficult, you know, to have that sensitivity, to have that responsiveness, you know, given the actual use case.

[00:10:42] So I think it’s just always interesting to see that distinction between like, we thought it would work this way, but after getting that feedback, we now know it needs to work this way. 

[00:10:50] Renee: Right. And that’s why it’s critical why we push so much to have end users, actual operational personnel in on these standardization organizations because they can let you know off the bat that’s not going to work. 

[00:11:01] You have to make sure that in the initial testing, before you turn it over to the component, that someone who’s going to use it is in on those conversations and on those specifications and on those technical standards developments, because otherwise, at the end, it’s too late. 

[00:11:16] Brittany: Yeah. 

[00:11:17] Renee: So, we’re very committed to making sure that we have operational personnel and on those technical specifications at reviews at the very least.

[00:11:24] But we try to get them in and all of the deep dive development of it. 

[00:11:28] Brittany: And I mean, it strikes me that like what you’re ultimately giving them is confidence. Saying that in that life-or-death scenario or just like when seconds matter in an emergency, you can have complete confidence that this is gonna do what you need it to do. 

[00:11:42] Renee: Right.

[00:11:43] Brittany: That’s a huge gift to give people. 

[00:11:45] Renee: Yeah. They’re wonderful to work with. you know, I, come from an operational background, so it’s wonderful to work with.

[00:11:50] Brittany: Can you tell us a little bit more about your background? Where were you before S&T? 

[00:11:53] Renee: Sure. So, I was with CBP before it was CBP, when it was Customs Service, in the laboratories.

[00:11:58] Brittany: Oh, okay. 

[00:11:59] Renee: My entire life. So, I’ve been able to do forensic analyses on thing things that have been interdicted everything from clothing to diamonds to narcotics.

[00:12:10] Brittany: Wow. So, you really have that nice perspective then from understanding what people in the field need.

[00:12:15] Renee: Yes. And I’ve been lucky enough to be able to get, you know, really candid feedback for what’s useful and what’s not useful. Because again, you know, spending the time to do something that’s not useful is not what anyone wants to do.

[00:12:26] Brittany: Well. Yeah. And not to paint with a broad brush, but law enforcement, they do tend to be very candid with their feedback, and we appreciate it very much.

[00:12:32] Renee: Yeah, we do. We do. 

[00:12:35] Brittany: Yeah. So that reminds me of something you mentioned earlier about I think an anecdote that you’ve mentioned before about body armor, and how there’s a distinction between body armor for men versus body armor for women. 

[00:12:44] Renee: Correct.

[00:12:45] Brittany: Can you tell us a little about that? 

[00:12:46] Renee: Yeah, sure. The way bodies are engineered requires a different fit.

[00:12:49] You know, women have a different in general have different waist to hip ratio. And also height wise.

[00:12:54] Brittany: Yeah. 

[00:12:54] Renee: We tend to be shorter. That affects how, how a, you know, ballistic vest is going to be shaped. Like if it hits your hip and it pushes up, then you leave, you know, the lower part of your abdomen exposed. 

[00:13:06] There was actually an episode on Law & Order: SVU where the female officer was shot underneath her vest and unfortunately in real life there have been some officers who have gotten shot in like the arm hole area because it didn’t cover what it needed to cover.

[00:13:23] Brittany: Can you tell us more about how compliance with standards can help either reduce cost or risk, or, you know, help improve throughput? How do we see those benefits?

[00:13:34] Renee: So, I’m going to use the telecommunications space to answer that question. Telecommunications has evolved very rapidly, continues to evolve very rapidly. One of the critical parts of it is interoperability and having at least that basic ability to make a call, get a call, send a message, get a message, have that data secure, and the procurement and the acquisition of all of the operations across DHS.

[00:14:01] It has been essential that those pieces of equipment meet at least certain minimum specifications. Again, for security, for functionality, for interoperability. One of the things that we are looking to more robustly develop is what happens when those hubs for telecommunications are destroyed in a fire, like in Maui.

[00:14:26] Brittany: Oh yeah.

[00:14:27] Renee: Or you know, just, we’ve had so many hurricanes that have impacted electrical capabilities for whole cities. You know what happens when you have five different jurisdictions of first responders show up and have to communicate with each other, in a space where, you know, the usual hubs don’t work or broken down or burnt up or what have you. So, compliance with at least a minimal level of interoperability of being able to simplify to switch channels on your communication system so that you can communicate so that, you know, you’re not stepping into a dangerous place or you’re alerting, or just giving assistance where it’s really needed.

[00:15:10] So, ensuring that what has been purchased and tested and evaluated and, you know, we’ve used those cases to show that it is capable. That has been critical to our law enforcement, our, all of our operational spaces. 

[00:15:24] That helps us to ensure that what DHS components are buying are purchasing and are implementing actually serves the needs.

[00:15:31] Brittany: I mean, because when the stakes are this high, it has to work. 

[00:15:35] Renee: Absolutely. 

[00:15:35] Brittany: It just has to…So that makes me wonder…is there like a public crier who goes up and says, “Here ye! We have a new standard.” Like, what, what happens? 

[00:15:42] Renee: Yeah. So essentially, annually there’s a report due to NIST, the National Institute of Standards and Technology, which is tasked by the government to manage standards activities across the entire government.

[00:15:53] What NIST has done in the last few months is they’ve created a large government portal. So, the last few months we were making sure that all of our components have access to it.

[00:16:02] Brittany: Oh yeah.

[00:16:02] Renee: So that they can actually go in and check on standards that are needed for anything that they’re trying to procure.

[00:16:08] Anything that’s being implemented. We also, NUSTL did, and NUSTL is the lab, and Cassie Robinson is amazing. They have procurement guides that we’re using as models for some of our procurement guides to make sure that standards, technical standards are incorporated in procurement, which they are, but it’s one of those things that we have to articulate it to make sure that if someone new is doing the procurement or someone who’s not as familiar with the procurement process to make sure that it is articulated that these standards, these minimum standards have to be incorporated in whatever’s being procured or acquired.

[00:16:44] Brittany: Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:44] Renee: We have to make sure it’s articulated and which standards, and if you don’t know, here’s where you can go so that we can guide you through what standards need to be incorporated. 

[00:16:53] Brittany: Yeah, because you don’t know what you don’t know.

[00:16:54] Renee: You don’t.

[00:16:55] Brittany: And that’s really helpful to have one central location to go, okay, if I’m, you know, the new person in charge of, you know, procuring this equipment or the software or whatever it is, being able to have like, okay, this is the one trusted source.

[00:17:05] Renee: Right. Right. 

[00:17:06] Brittany: Okay, so looking from the other side of that, we understand the value to the end users, how they get to have that, you know, good insight and guidance as far as when they make their purchasing decisions, how does that impact the manufacturing side as well?  

[00:17:19] Renee: The manufacturers are there to make a profit and to provide something of value. So, if they were to say, make this microphone, but it doesn’t function on the third floor conference room in Washington, D.C., then doesn’t make any sense. They’ve lost their market share. 

[00:17:37] Brittany: Right. 

[00:17:37] Renee: And they, you know, they want to constantly produce something that is of value to their purchasers and so they, you know, they participate in it because they wanna have a, a product that they can market as, oh, it meets this minimum standard, and then whatever you want on top of that. 

[00:17:52] You know, they say, oh, and we also do this and that. So, one of the things that we have seen though that we’ve advised on is manufacturers who say that they align with the standard versus meet the standard.

[00:18:05] Brittany: Oh interesting. 

[00:18:06] Renee: And so this goes to some of our guidelines for procurement, you know, of what to watch for, to make sure that, you know, it’s like, oh, okay, that’s right. You know, it’s like, you get a um, a seatbelt that aligns with the standard versus meets the standard, and if you get into an accident, that can be deadly. 

[00:18:22] So we wanna make sure that, you know, that manufacturers and are not doing the word play when the government is purchasing anything.

[00:18:29] Brittany: So earlier you mentioned about the importance of repeatability. I wanna go back to that and why is it so important that these standards and tests are repeatable?

[00:18:39] Renee: It’s part of the scientific evidence rules, right? If you can get any result once. 

[00:18:45] Brittany: Yeah. 

[00:18:46] Renee: Anything, you know, to get it twice. And a third time allows you to document what the process was to do it and to show that it wasn’t just a fluke, it wasn’t just luck, it was actual precise and accurate activity in order to accomplish that.

[00:19:02] And that’s critical for everything that we’re producing and developing in order to make sure that what we’re purchasing at the end is actually what’s gonna be usable.

[00:19:10] Brittany: So can you give us some examples of specific standards that S&T has helped establish?

[00:19:15] Renee: Ooh, yes.

[00:19:16] With regard to robotics. How to use it, how to make sure it’s functional. For our millimeter wave detection technology, which we’ve seen going through airports, to detect explosives and other things.

[00:19:27] Those are probably some of the top ones. Right now, we’re also working uh, with NIST for wastewater surveillance. One of the things that, that is essential because again, science is not magic, has to be reproducible. In order to get, if you’ve ever seen any crime shows and they’re like, oh, there was a fingerprint, but we couldn’t identify, and people are like, well, why couldn’t they identify it?

[00:19:45] Well. Person’s fingerprints have to be in the system in order to do an identification, a comparison. So for wastewater, there needs to be a baseline of what normal water wastewater looks like. And then to be able to detect if something odd is there, whether it’s a bio threat or a surge in a public health threat.

[00:20:06] Brittany: Sure.

[00:20:07] Renee: Or a surge in a narcotic or illicit substance that shows up in the wastewater.

[00:20:13] And there’s been some good success with detecting a sudden surge and an illicit material in the water in a certain area, which allows an alert to law enforcement and some action that needs to be done. 

[00:20:26] Brittany: Wow, that’s incredible.

[00:20:27] Renee: So we’re working toward that to get a standard for what basic wastewater looks like.

[00:20:31] Brittany: I am glad I am not on that team, but I really appreciate the work that they’re doing.

[00:20:35] Renee: Yes. So do I. They are doing tremendously good work.

[00:20:38] Brittany: Okay, so let’s dive into AI…AI, big hot topic right now. What is the standards team doing or what is the role that you play in, you know, helping DHS navigate how to use or test or evaluate this emergent technology?

[00:20:52] Renee: Alright, so like our testing and evaluation other parts of S&T that are looking at just how many things that we’re doing have or require or will need AI capabilities. So for standards alone we’ve developed an AI roadmap moving forward of the type of things that we need to focus on. Uh, looking at the top three are biometrics, telecommunications, and intelligence of where that activity might be used, should be used, and that we have to be extra cautious in using it.

[00:21:27] I mean, the capabilities have been there and have been utilized for a while, but it’s making sure that within whatever the technology is, that there are some, there are technical specifications like the need for cybersecurity. 

[00:21:41] Brittany: Oh yeah.

[00:21:41] Renee: The need for other things that are essential. So, we’re looking at what the capabilities are.

[00:21:47] Brittany: What can it actually achieve? And how do we make sure that is, you know, secure? Especially in the DHS space, because, you know, there’s a lot of data where you have to protect it. You can’t just have it. 

[00:21:57] Renee: Yes.

[00:21:57] Brittany: You know, open and accessible to everybody. 

[00:21:58] Renee: Yeah. And for standards, one of the critical things is making sure that no vulnerabilities are being put into the technology. 

[00:22:04] Brittany: Oh yeah. 

[00:22:05] Renee: And so that’s where our focus has been, is protecting against those vulnerabilities, ensuring, like you said, the security is there.

[00:22:13] And looking at what the next iteration of this is going to be.

[00:22:17] Brittany: And you know, we’ve been lucky to have some guests on our previous episodes to talk about, you know what can this do for us and what do you also need to watch out for in this space? So, listeners, please go back and check those episodes.

[00:22:28] So switching gears a little bit, just learning more about you.

[00:22:31] Renee: Okay. 

[00:22:31] Brittany: You know, what are your favorite things to do outside of work?

[00:22:34] Renee: So, I’m a big, I’m a big cook.

[00:22:36] I like to feed people. It’s, you know, the more you try not to be like your mother, the more you become.

[00:22:42] So, so I love that. And then my husband and I will have a dessert competition for one of the holidays where we don’t tell who, who made what, and they have to sample and vote on who made the best dessert.

[00:22:50] Brittany: Do you pick like a category? Like we’re doing cakes this year?

[00:22:53] We’re doing pie next year? 

[00:22:54] Renee: We do. Yeah.

[00:22:55] Brittany: So, I understand you and your husband were certified as Kansas City Barbecue Judges.

[00:23:00] Renee: Yes.

[00:23:00] Brittany: Can you tell me a little bit about that process? First of all, I’m thrilled to hear that there’s a accreditation process for this. 

[00:23:06] Renee: There is. 

[00:23:07] Brittany: But what was that process like?

[00:23:08] Renee: There is. There is. So, my husband is a huge barbecue fan doesn’t even cover it. Right. So, he and his friends, you know, have, you know, their special secret rub that we sat there and developed and all that other stuff.

[00:23:19] So watching all these barbecue shows, we’re like, oh, let’s see if we can do that.

[00:23:22] And I looked it up. A few times a year, they’ll have a barbecue judge certification class.

[00:23:27] Brittany: Incredible. 

[00:23:27] Renee: That you can, all over the country. So we went up and did one.

[00:23:30] It was very entertaining. I did almost get thrown out of the class. Apparently, you’re not supposed to be expressive, and I made a face. And they have very strict rules. You can’t have water on the table, or they could spill. And I thought the judge was being a little rigid.

[00:23:45] Brittany: That seems like a bit much.

[00:23:46] Renee: And then I made a face that my husband and the judge got a little angry and said, that’s why we don’t like husbands and wives to sit next to each other ’cause you talk too much to each other. And I went, what is wrong with this guy? But we did get our certificates and our little pins, so… 

[00:23:59] Brittany: I’m intrigued though because I do wanna like get the lapel.

[00:24:01] Renee: It’s a fun course. It’s a fun course.

[00:24:03] Brittany: So, in your mind, Renee, what does a world without standards look like?

[00:24:08] Renee: It would be very chaotic… 

[00:24:10] Self-destructive, I think is what it would be.

[00:24:13] Brittany: That sounds bad.

[00:24:14] Renee: It does. Imagine again, from the seats that we’re sitting on right now, if the metal in the screws had not met certain standards, and so you might sit on it and it’ll be okay. And I sit on it and it collapses. Imagine those bolts in a plane, a train, an automobile?

[00:24:31] I don’t wanna use standardized in the standards definition, but if the process were not established for making roads, and so some roads were reinforced, some were not reinforced. The steel and the metal and everything else used, you know, it has not been established as this is this, must be the specifications that you use in order to carry this weight load. I mean, we’ve seen on some highways, trucks over a certain weight are not allowed on certain highways. You know, there’s a reason for that. Just chaotic because as I mentioned before, you can get any result once, but it needs to be repeatable.

[00:25:07] It needs to be procedural, methodical, in order to make sure that whatever is produced and manufactured and put into operations and put into anything else is something that has integrity in what is being made. That’s why I say chaotic. It’s just all over the place. Just no rhyme reason, discipline, order, just complete disorder.

[00:25:32] Brittany: I mean, it sounds like there’s a complete lack of trust in that world where like even just stepping outside or even being in your house, you’re just like–

 [00:25:38] Renee: Right. 

[00:25:38] Brittany: well, who knows. 

[00:25:40] Renee: Right.

[00:25:40] Brittany: That sounds like a very nervous place to be.

[00:25:42] Renee: Right.

[00:25:42] Brittany: So, can you finish this sentence for us? I find my job rewarding because…?

[00:25:47] Renee: I find my job rewarding because… I can experience the tangible output of technical specifications.

[00:25:59] Brittany: Mmm.

[00:25:59] Renee: And I just I can see officers in protective equipment. I know that the detection capabilities work because we update what we use to test them on a regular basis based on those technical specifications. I’ve seen things that we’ve developed actually detect what they’re supposed to detect.

[00:26:22] I’ve seen changes made when they failed.

[00:26:25] And corrections made when they failed, which is important because everything doesn’t work. And being able to develop some metrics to ensure that they will work makes me feel more secure. My husband made fun of me because we were going someplace and I was like, oh, that’s the millimeter wave.

[00:26:39] He was like, oh here we go. He said, you’re such a nerd. But it feels good to go through the airport and I know it works because I’ve seen the technical specifications and the evaluations that have gone through it. So, that, that makes the job pretty satisfying, is seeing it deploy.

[00:26:53] Brittany: Well, and you especially must know that works because you’re like, well, hey, I had a hand in making sure I personally know that this is up to the standards that it needs to be.

[00:27:00] Renee: I did. And seeing the officers in the field, you know, come back and say, this works so well. Years ago, we had an officer in the field say, hey, they gave this to us a test, and then they took it back because they’re gonna procure it, but I want it.

[00:27:13] I want it now. And being able to loan them that until they got their full order, but knowing that they, it worked and they liked it and they didn’t wanna let it go. 

[00:27:21] Brittany: Yeah. 

[00:27:21] Renee: But so, you know, that, that gives me satisfaction. 

[00:27:24] Brittany: Absolutely. I mean, because helping folks, especially at the state and local levels where, you know, that’s where the action’s happening a lot of the time, is these are the folks who are on the ground every day doing the work.

[00:27:34] Well, Renee, thank you so much for being here today. This has been a wonderful conversation, and I’ve really enjoyed getting to hear about the work that you do at S&T. 

[00:27:39] Renee: Okay. Thank you for having me. 

[00:27:41] Brittany: Absolutely. And thank you all for listening. This has been technologically speaking. We’ll look forward to seeing you next time.

[00:27:46] Dave: Thank you for listening to Technologically Speaking. To learn more about what you’ve heard in this episode, check out the show notes on our website, and follow us on Apple Podcasts and YouTube, and on social media at DHS SciTech. D H S S C I T E C H. Bye!